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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
623
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Posted - 2015.03.05 19:21:06 -
[1] - Quote
What is important to remember is that this game isn't divided between attackers and defenders. So saying "attacker gets all the advantages" is meaningless. This game is divided between CFC, N3, and various other sov holding entities all of which have the same potential to be an aggressor. If 1 person can bring a ceptor to harass sov, why can't the defender bring 1 to nullify it? Why wouldn't they be able to bring 1 to nullify it and a few of his buddies to push the attacker off?
For people that like small gang highspeed frig warfare and the ability to pursue asymmetric warfare this will be great.
For the nullbear that has all his stuff in some empty corner of space where he's afk ratting 23/7, this may be a concern.
+1 to sov changes from me.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
626
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Posted - 2015.03.05 22:42:59 -
[2] - Quote
Humans are generally predictable. They hate change. Sure they'll gripe about how bad things are, but when it comes to actual change, they dislike it and instead learn to cope with the current state of affairs. The new sov changes are scary for some people. These are the people that have learned to just "deal" with it and the idea that they may have to re-learn the sov system and adapt is frustrating. Where some may see scary change, others see exciting new opportunity. I proposed a similar idea with "central hubs" and "nodes" being used in order to make 0.0 sov mechanics more varied and so this version is very close to my liking.
Unfortunately the ones that see new opportunity are far out numbered by the other group, the people that see the new sov changes as the end of Eve online and the final reason they need to write out their sad "i'm quitting Eve" threads. But don't give up just yet, read on. Perhaps you're one of the people that see the future in a positive light or perhaps you're one of the naysayers on the brink of running a blade up and down your arm. I'm going to tell you why many of the criticisms presented are simply illogical.
One argument I've been reading both here at EN24, TMC and the Eve forums is that now a single interceptor will throw the entire sov mechanic into a hellspin of wack-a-mole. The attacker now has all the advantages and the defender has none. A lone interceptor will now go from system to system like a busy little bee collecting the nectar of tears from our flowery faced nullsec residents. But how right are they?
This game is not divided between "attacker" and "defender." It's made up of different alliances, coalitions, corps, and entities, all of which have just as much potential to play either role. So if you're afraid of having your entire space empire relegated to the history books, well what is stopping you from doing the same to your enemy? Nothing! Everyone is just as capable at fitting up a ceptor and doing the same thing.
Even if you are stuck as the defender, and the enemy has burned several jumps into your home system (which by the way is an advantage to the defender) why couldn't you as the defender simply hop out with your own Entosis moduled ship and negate your enemy? It's an equal hardship for both sides, the attacker doesn't gain any advantage. In fact it is harder for them because they already traversed several systems to get to their target where as you simply hit the undock button, hit "orbit" and activated the module.
You can actually catch the ceptor. Before you start spouting off EFT fittings of your 10,000,000,000 KM Stilleto, relax for a second and realize you as the defender can fit the exact same thing. What's more, you can also fit in implants that make you go even faster than your attacker. Your attacker may also fit those implants but it's unlikely they're going to risk a head full of highgrades just to troll your sov. But let's imagine that he does, and you're both going the exact same speed and you just can't catch the damn ceptor yourself. Well you have one further advantage: fleet boosts. Yes you can fit your favorite speed boosting T3/Commandship and catch up to your aggressor, something your aggressor is unlikely to try. And if they do, well isn't this YOUR system? Get some buddies to probe out the enemy boosts and go kill it.
But what if the enemy brings several ceptors and i'm all by myself? Obviously your alliance doesn't do enough to occupy the region. Maybe you don't deserve to own sov here, and your enemy which has actually brought people has. How the hell can you allow a gang of ships to fly through your space and you not fight it?
Another argument is that 0.0 is about big ship battles! What is this Faction Warfare? I didn't join up in 0.0 to fight with Rifters and Tristans. I'm here to see hundreds of capitals and big ships duking it out!
Conflicts will escalate. The attacker will bring a lone ceptor, in response the defender will bring his own combat ceptor + friends and catch and drive out the attacker. The attacker will now attempt to ship up to something bigger, perhaps AHACs. In response the defender drops capitals to which the attacker, if he wants to press forward, will respond the same. So you know what the big surprise is? 0.0 is still about big fleets. That doesn't change. The difference now is that N+1 isn't the end all be all of 0.0 warfare. After you attack the initial system and force vulnerability in the rest of the constellation, fleets are going to have to divide and be more varied. Multiple skirmish FC will coordinate different attacks in different regions.
This won't just be a revolution concerning how sov mechanics work, but the entire social aspect of the game itself. Players are no longer going to wait for a particular main line FC to call up all the capital ships in order for anything relevant to happen. Their small gang frig roams won't be irrelevant any longer. Now a group of 10 friends flying cruisers and frigs are both meaningful tools of attack AND defense. Now when those small gangs go out, it'll actually matter. If you bring your group of 10 friends and your enemy doesn't undock their gang, they're going to lose their territory. This alone will introduce so much more content into 0.0 It's baffling how anyone can have these fallacious doom and gloom predictions.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
630
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Posted - 2015.03.05 23:04:28 -
[3] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The ONLY thing ceptors should have to do with the new sov mechanics - scouting and tackle, that is their role that is what they should do. No sov module (offensive or defensive) should be able to be fitted to anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it should have a fuel requirement, PG and CPU requirements as well.
Why shouldn't small ships play a role? Why not counter them with your small ships (or bigger ships?)
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
631
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Posted - 2015.03.05 23:24:33 -
[4] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:Harry Saq wrote:Big three issues so far...
1. Inty Entosis 2. Prime Time 3. We have now gotten two sticks, where's the carrot (otherwise known as incentive to even live in null)
Did I leave anything out? That seems to be the primary feedback so far. There'll be no blue donut when everyone just lives as concord's renters in highsec
Oh please...
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
631
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Posted - 2015.03.05 23:31:18 -
[5] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:
The ONLY thing ceptors should have to do with the new sov mechanics - scouting and tackle, that is their role that is what they should do. No sov module (offensive or defensive) should be able to be fitted to anything smaller than a battlecruiser, it should have a fuel requirement, PG and CPU requirements as well.
Why shouldn't small ships play a role? Why not counter them with your small ships (or bigger ships?) Small ships can play a role, the one they are designed for. Ceptors role is tackle and scouting, I have no problem with that but if you can fit one of these Entosis modules to a ceptor you are actually removing active game play. They are immune to everything but "pilot stupid", so OP when it comes to being able to use a sov changing module.
How are they immune if you can catch them?
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
636
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Posted - 2015.03.06 06:00:17 -
[6] - Quote
People complaining about the ceptors do so under the impression that ceptors would be impossible to catch while activating the sov laser. This is non sense. They can be and will be caught.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 06:51:31 -
[7] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:I hate to bring up this weird little complaint, but SOV laser really reminds me of capture the flag. Nothing breaks immersion like capture the flag. The entosis laser bears no resemblance to any grand space warfare we read about in sci fi books, which is the prime reason a lot of us have come to play this game.
Sure it does. It's a new module from the drifters blah blah blah.
You know what breaks my scifi experience? ****** TIDI and grinding afk structures. Aint nobody got time for that
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:30:09 -
[8] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Burl en Daire wrote: What else is there?
Don't even try a false dichotomy. There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever. The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time. That is not an acceptable solution.
At what distance would this be happening?
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:44:53 -
[9] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.
I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large. The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low.
Why is it too large? What exactly is stopping you as a defender from killing the target ship?
(BTW you dont have to defend 24 7...only 4 hours in your prime time of choosing.)
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:47:06 -
[10] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Burl en Daire wrote: Timers and counters are the only way to do it and it has to be accessible to everyone or we are back to the problem we're in now.
And like I said above. Setting the bar at 2 minutes of time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar too low.
Why?
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:55:20 -
[11] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:It's too large because it permits methods of engaging the structure without committing to attacking any defenders.
With a gigantic range on it like it has, if you get a decent kiting cruiser and engage at extreme range, their only chance to deal with you is to just sit on the button with their own Entosis module contesting yours, until one of you gets bored and leaves.
That is not creating conflict. That is incentivizing a lack of conflict.
Or you get your own kiting curiser, and since its YOUR system which you are living in, you should be able to catch that pesky attacker and kill him. That sounds like conflict to me.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:4 hours... per structure, each and every day that someone with a cov ops ship spends 2 minutes while you're asleep reinforcing them.
If you're asleep, obviously it isn't your prime time. If it isn't your prime time, why would your 4 hour window be set up during that time? Think logically here.
If an attacker is hitting a system you live in, in your prime time which you should have people being awake in, why can't you defend your space?
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 07:56:08 -
[12] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Torgeir Hekard wrote: The question is, how long is the actual capture time.
That's not relevant. The attacker doesn't have to be on grid for that, by all indications. The attacker only has to pop out for 2 minutes, then cloak up in a safe. If they come back and "rep" it, he does it again. If they don't, they have to waste four hours the next day, and the process starts over. That's just an inordinate amount of babysitting.
By what indications? You don't even know and you're spouting misinformation.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 08:02:07 -
[13] - Quote
Vigilanta wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.
I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large. The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low. Pretty much, as currently proposed were are talking about an endeavor in ritual sucide not an endeavor of living or not living in your sov. Aside from the fact that systems should be potentially vulnerable during all timezone, not just a window, as i have said earlier i think some form of the SBU mechanic to induce vulnerability is appropriate. Reinforcing a system should require a fleet, it shouldn't be a task that is capable of being performed by 1 man or even 5 dudes. To own sov you shouldn't need to babysit your assets 24 hours a day, or even 4 hours a day, there needs to be effort expended by the attacker, organized effort at that. 1 dude in an small hull be it bc or frigate shouldn't be capable of reinforcing a system. If the goal is to encourage pvp the current mechanics proposed do not do that, they do however encourage heavy harassment until no one can be arsed to defend sov. I think the entosis module and time duration rather than hitpoints is good. I think id get rid of the no remote reps bit, and instead require you use 10-20 of them in order to reinforce. The smallest alliance can muster this man power, any sov holding entity or sov aspiring entity should be able to manage these range of numbers. This creates a relatively low barrier to entry, undefended sov will still fall quickly, but it requires an actual fleet and should limit the more asinine forms of useless harassment. Couple this with some sort of low hitpoint fast time vulnerability mechanic reminiscent of the SBU and I think we are well on our way to a better version of the proposed system. Taking sov shouldnt be easy mode nor should defending. Dominion favored the defender a bit to much, this favors the attacker to much. There is a happy middle in there. A periphery is there should really be a roll for Dreads/supers and carriers in this system as at current there really isnt any other than to plop them on a command node to ensure you control at least one while your subs go to others.
But here' the thing none of you are getting...1 man isn't going to reinforce any sov...unless it's unoccupied. This only works if these systems are unoccupied in which case, yeah 1 guy should RF them easy. But if people actually OCCUPY the system, it's reasonable to assume there's at least 2 or 3 guys in that staion willing to undock and kill the 1 attacker. So the attacker will have to escalate...to larger fleet, which will make the defender form a larger fleet.
So this idea that lone ceptors are going to go around destroying everything in 0.0 is complete non sense void of any forethought, logic or reasoning.
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 08:05:37 -
[14] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:You ought to know by now that most people will take the low road.
That being, to park a tanky ship with a cyno in the highslots on the button contesting it.
And the defender doesn't have the option to do the same?
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Did you even read what I wrote? It's vulnerable to reinforce at all times, not just prime time. But once it is reinforced, you are committed to 4 hours time tax the next day, per structure, because there is zero recourse against something that takes only two minutes without being on each and every structure 24/7.
No where in the devblog have I seen that you can RF things in 2 minutes. IT states that the modules takes 2 minutes to start activating. Can you please direct me to your source and other "indications?"
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
637
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Posted - 2015.03.06 08:17:27 -
[15] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote: But here' the thing none of you are getting...1 man isn't going to reinforce any sov...unless it's unoccupied.
Yeah, they can, because it takes a mere 2 minutes and people have to sleep and eat and use the bathroom. If someone lives in a system, it is not "unoccupied" just because they have to sleep. Why do you think that owning sov should be a job, instead of a videogame?

In the new Sovereignty system, each alliance will designate a four hour window through a new option available in the Corporation Management window to certain members of the alliance executor corp. This period will represent the allianceGÇÖs declared prime time, and will be visible in the show info window for the alliance and in the show info window for each Sovereignty structure belonging to that alliance.
When an alliance changes their prime time window, their new choice will not take effect until after 96 hours have passed. At the end of this 96 hour waiting period all the structures belonging to that alliance will be vulnerable twice in the same 24 hour period (one in the old window and once in the new one). The new setting will then take effect and become the new daily vulnerability window.
This will determine the time period within which all Sovereignty structures belonging to that alliance are vulnerable to be reinforced, and the time period within which the exit time of all reinforcement periods for that allianceGÇÖs Sovereignty structures will be randomly selected. All Sovereignty structures belonging to the alliance will become vulnerable to be reinforced during that same four hour period every day, except for days when those structures are in the middle of a reinforcement period.
This allows alliances to ensure that they can defend their structures both from initial attacks and in subsequent Capture Events through active combat in their most important time zone. The fact that all structures belonging to the same alliance will be vulnerable during the same period of time allows more localized attackers to receive an advantage over a more widely spread defender since the defender will need to respond to attacks anywhere in their territory.
During the vulnerability period any character can activate an Entosis Link on the Sovereignty structures to begin the process of reinforcing it. Once the first cycle of the Entosis Link completes and the capture progress begins the Alliance who owns the structure will be notified of the attack and will need to respond in order to prevent the attackers from reinforcing the structure.
Reinforcing a Sovereignty structure with the Entosis Link will take anywhere between 10 minutes and 40 minutes of uncontested capture, depending on the level of occupancy defense bonuses in the system. If the attackers are successful in completing the capture progress, the structure will pick a random time within the same prime time window two days later, and enter reinforced mode until then.
If a structure is partially captured at the end of the vulnerability window, it will remain vulnerable until it is either captured and enters reinforced mode or is returned to full owner control by the owning alliance using their own Entosis links.
Although reinforcing of Sovereignty structures may only occur during the owning allianceGÇÖs prime time window, station services can be disabled at any time through use of the Entosis Link for between 5 and 20 minutes (depending on occupancy levels).
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
638
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Posted - 2015.03.06 08:28:05 -
[16] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Well, missed that part. (God, their layout for that sucks) That's better than I had realized, although still not ideal.
It still mandates babysitting your structures when you should be out using your space and doing things.
It mandates living in your system. You should be using the very system which the enemy may want to take from you. It makes small roaming gangs meaningful. Now you can get in a fleet with 10 of your buddies and have an impact, either as a patrol or an attacker.
I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read. 
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Seraph IX Basarab
Hades Effect Forsaken Asylum
638
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Posted - 2015.03.06 08:37:20 -
[17] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:Seraph IX Basarab wrote: It mandates living in your system.
Your worthless, truesec system with an income below that of L4 missions... Quote:I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read.  But I can blame mine on the ****** mobile layout they have for that dev blog. Genuinely atrocious, but that's what I get for posting from my phone.
If truesec is so worthless, nobody would be living in them. At this point you've shown that you're having...ahem...phone troubles so reading is out of the question yet you are insisting on your poorly thought of concepts concerning the mechanic even though you've been proven wrong on every account.
Do yourself a favor, apologize for rudely and hypocritically accusing others of not being able to read, and come look at this thread in 3 days after you've read the devblog a few times.
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